Episode 51

Published on:

26th Nov 2021

51 - Clearing of the Pink Mist: A Conversation w/ Debbie Hayton

UK transwoman Debbie Hayton discusses how she came to the decision to medically transition when she was a 44-year-old father of 3 children. We discuss Debbie’s appearance in Stella’s film, Trans Kids: It’s Time to Talk and the intense public reaction to her story. Male sexuality, shame, and autogynephilia are explored openly in a bid to gain a deeper understanding of the complicated mosaic of traits that encompass MtF transition. She also shares how she became disillusioned with transgender ideology and coined the phrase, “trans women are men. Get over it.”



Critically Examining the Doctrine of Gender Identity with Rebecca Reilly-Cooper: Youtube.com/watch?v=QPVNxYkawao

Magdalen Berns on Alex Drummond:


Miranda Yardley:


Debbie’s Website: 


Extended Notes:

  • Stella talks about the 2018 film, Trans Kids, and how people misinterpreted how Debbie emerged in that film.
  • How is it for a family when there is a late transition? Debbie transitioned at 44 years old with a wife and three children.
  • Debbie shares the answer to the big question on why the chronic condition of the dissatisfaction of her sex and body suddenly became acute.
  • Could there have been a therapy or experience that may have pulled her back from transitioning?
  • Debbie shares how she used shame, guilt, and fear as powerful emotions to control her desire to dress as a girl at four years old.
  • Debbie describes how she sees autogynephilia as a sexuality and how you can be attracted to your own body where it can be the focus of your sexual interest.
  • The male sexual drive is so powerful and there is a need to control it. Has Debbie now been freed from that after her transition?
  • Sasha wonders, if Debbie stumbled upon gender dysphoria or autogynephilia and how it manifests in some male people before her transformation, would it have changed what she felt she needed to do or how she managed her feelings?
  • Stella and Sasha also discuss how people can be compulsive with their feelings about gender and ask Debbie about her thoughts on gender euphoria and the “pink mist.”
  • Is there a way for the autogynephilic to operate in the world without asking other people to buy into the narrative that they’re a woman? Debbie shares what helped her lift her pink mist.
  • Should transwomen go through synthetic menopause and, if so, what are the potential negative effects of that?
  • Debbie shares how she feels about her body now, her current beliefs about her sexuality, and how she interacts with it in the world around her.

This podcast is partially sponsored by ReIME, Rethink Identity Medicine Ethics:


Learn more about our show: Linktr.ee/WiderLensPod

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About the Podcast

Gender: A Wider Lens Podcast
Two therapists explore the expanding concept of "gender" from a psychological depth perspective.
Gender dysphoria has become a minefield for public discussion, with many afraid to express their views or question the narrative. Our mission is to examine this important and complex topic from a range of perspectives, but always through a psychological lens. By openly considering and examining gender identity, transition, and the transgender umbrella, we hope to give all interested parties permission to engage these fascinating topics with less fear and more honesty. Interviews and discussions will involve clinicians, medical professionals, academics, transgender people, parents, detransitioners and other interesting individuals whose lives have been touched by the concept of gender.

Conversations between two practicing therapists give listeners an opportunity to contemplate gender from a depth perspective not currently taken up in most of today’s accessible debates. As a result of their work with gender dysphoric therapy clients as well as their personal divergent experiences with gender, Stella and Sasha hold a refreshing and informed perspective.

Is gender identity a facilitation of development and expression of creativity, or can it be a defense against painful existential realities of living in a human body? What can we discover about masculinity, femininity, identity, gender performance, and sexuality when we peer beneath the surface and dive into a deeper psychological exploration? What is the relationship between body, mind, identity, culture, and psyche?

This podcast engages listeners in an intimate and fascinating behind-the-scenes inquiry about a topic as taboo as it is salient today.

* We are sponsored by ReIME and Genspect.
Rethink Identity Medicine Ethics (ReIME) is a non-profit organization dedicated to improving long term care for gender variant individuals. To learn more, visit https://rethinkime.org/

Genspect is an international alliance of parent and professional groups whose aim is to advocate for parents of gender-questioning children and young people. Parents are concerned that their kids are not receiving appropriate treatment and support; many do not feel free to speak out about their concerns.
To learn more, visit https://genspect.org/
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About your hosts

Stella O'Malley

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Stella O’Malley is a psychotherapist and author who works in private practice in Ireland. Her work focuses on parenting, family dynamics and working with teenagers.

Much of Stella’s counselling and writing focuses on mental health and the importance of well-being and she is a regular contributor to the media. She is also the resident psychotherapist for the current TV series, Raised by the Village, a family programme that helps troubled teenagers reconnect with themselves and their families.

Stella's first book, Cotton Wool Kids, was released in 2015 while Bully-Proof Kids: Practical tools to help kids grow up confident, resilient and strong was released in 2017. Stella’s latest book Fragile, was released in 2019 and focuses on overcoming anxiety and stress.

Stella was the presenter of the documentary Trans - Kids: It’s Time To Talk broadcast on Channel 4 in November 2018 and she contributed a chapter to the 2019 book, Inventing Transgender Children and Young People.

The Jungian analyst, Lisa Marchiano, and Stella launched Secrets of the Motherworld in September 2019, offering thoughtful exploration of the most intimate aspects of motherhood in a bid to help mothers feel less alone.

Stella is a Clinical Advisor for the Society for Evidence-based Gender Medicine and a founding member of the International Association of Therapists for Desisters and Detransitioners. She is also the lead facilitator for the Gender Dysphoria Support Network.

Stella holds a B.A. in Counselling and Psychotherapy and a M.A. in Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

Sasha Ayad

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Sasha Ayad is a Licensed Professional Counselor who works in private practice, and has treated adolescents for over 10 years. Her work focuses on teens and young adults struggling with issues of gender dysphoria and gender identity.

She became interested in the sharp rise in teenagers who declare a trans identity for the first time during adolescence. She discovered, through working with hundreds of families, that many teens were developing gender dysphoria only after adopting a transgender identity. She questions the practice of medical transition for children and teenagers, and her clinical work focuses on developmentally appropriate, least-invasive-first talk therapy.

Sasha is also a founding member and Clinical Advisor in the Society for Evidence-based Gender Medicine and a founding member of the International Association of Therapists for Desisters and Detransitioners.

Sasha’s previous work experience includes:
- School counselor for middle and high school students at a charter school for underserved communities

- Behavioral therapy with children on the autism spectrum

- Individual and group counseling for women and children impacted by domestic abuse and sexual violence

- Developed and ran the first counseling program at a large state supported living facility for adults with intellectual disability

Sasha holds a B.S. in Psychology and an M.Ed. in Counseling Psychology.