Episode 116

116 — Identity Politics vs. The Pursuit of Knowledge with Dr. Michael Bailey

Published on: 2nd June, 2023

In this episode, Sasha and Stella welcome guest, Dr. Mike Bailey, who recently published a paper with co-author, Suzanna Diaz about reports of ROGD kids. Their paper is important because it essentially corroborates Dr. Lisa Littman’s study from 2018. During the conversation, Dr. Bailey shares about the possibility that the paper could be retracted due to activist backlash. He also explores the findings of the paper with Sasha and Stella, as well as the complaints brought against it. They even dissect the context of why a paper would even be retracted in the first place.

Michael Bailey is an American psychologist, behavioral geneticist, and professor at Northwestern University best known for his work on the etiology, or origins, of sexual orientation. He maintains that sexual orientation is heavily influenced by biology and male homosexuality is most likely inborn. Dr. Bailey’s 2003 book, The Man Who Would Be Queen, gave an accessible, intimate, and compassionate account of male sexuality, with a focus on gender nonconforming boys, gay men, and male-to-female transsexuals.

The discussion also touches on the controversial topic of autogynephilia, a very heated issue within the gender debates.



How porn has changed: 


Mike’s Tweet


Dr. David Ley


Louise Perry’s Book:


Review of Louise Perry’s Book:


Download The Man Who Would Be Queen: 


Alice Dreger (June 2008). “The controversy surrounding The Man Who Would Be Queen: a case history of the politics of science, identity, and sex in the Internet age”. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 37 (3): 366–421. doi:10.1007/s10508-007-9301-1.

If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting:

“Episode 2 - Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria”


“Episode 20 - Gender Dysphoria in Boys: Part 1”


“Episode 21 - Gender Dysphoria in Boys: Part 2 — A Conversation with Angus Fox”


“Episode 52 - Gender Dysphoria & Detransition Research: A Conversation W/ Dr. Lisa Littman”


“Episode 58 - Pioneers Series: Male Sexuality with Michael J. Bailey”


Please visit https://linktr.ee/widerlenspod to explore more content, access additional resources, or join our listener community.

For more information about Sasha’s & Stella’s private membership groups:

Sasha Ayad: https://inspiredteentherapy.com/parents-start-here

Stella O’Malley: http://www.stellaomalley.com/parent-coaching

To learn more about our sponsors, visit:

GETA https://www.genderexploratory.com/

ReIME https://rethinkime.org/

Genspect https://genspect.org/

Extended Notes:

  • The report is based on the parental reports of 1865 young adults who are believed to have ROGD.
  • Parents revealed they felt pressured by gender specialists to transition their children.
  • Dr. Bailey was a proud member of the ISR for approximately 30 years, until resigning this year because of the direction the organization is leaning towards.
  • ISR leadership issued a statement attempting to get the paper retracted and discredit it.
  • The academic publisher, Springer, changed the paper and stated that they would retract the article.
  • Dr. Bailey’s research shows that autogynephilia begins at a young age.
  • Dr. Bailey says Sissy Hypno porn seems to satisfy natal male viewers.
  • Dr. Bailey is open to the idea that pornography can have negative effects.
  • The group discusses porn and the grooming of young men in detail.
  • Dr. Bailey thinks that male sexuality is being demonized.


“Boys are so much less likely to socially transition and yet, ironically, more likely to medicalize.” — Sasha [16:34]

“Shaming tactics are the most powerful and most commonly used by activists for millennia. That's how we kept society in check.” — Stella [38:19]

“Autogynephiles are not at all sexually interested in the male body; they're not homosexual or even bisexual in a fundamental orientation sense. What they are aroused by is the idea of being desired by man and interacting sexually with a man as a woman.” — Dr. Mike Bailey [56:04]

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About the Podcast

Gender: A Wider Lens Podcast
Two therapists explore the expanding concept of "gender" from a psychological depth perspective.
Gender dysphoria has become a minefield for public discussion, with many afraid to express their views or question the narrative. Our mission is to examine this important and complex topic from a range of perspectives, but always through a psychological lens. By openly considering and examining gender identity, transition, and the transgender umbrella, we hope to give all interested parties permission to engage these fascinating topics with less fear and more honesty. Interviews and discussions will involve clinicians, medical professionals, academics, transgender people, parents, detransitioners and other interesting individuals whose lives have been touched by the concept of gender.

Conversations between two practicing therapists give listeners an opportunity to contemplate gender from a depth perspective not currently taken up in most of today’s accessible debates. As a result of their work with gender dysphoric therapy clients as well as their personal divergent experiences with gender, Stella and Sasha hold a refreshing and informed perspective.

Is gender identity a facilitation of development and expression of creativity, or can it be a defense against painful existential realities of living in a human body? What can we discover about masculinity, femininity, identity, gender performance, and sexuality when we peer beneath the surface and dive into a deeper psychological exploration? What is the relationship between body, mind, identity, culture, and psyche?

This podcast engages listeners in an intimate and fascinating behind-the-scenes inquiry about a topic as taboo as it is salient today.

Thank you to our sponsors:
Genspect - an international organization which offers an alternative to WPATH. Providing a range of education, resources and supports to anyone impacted by gender distress, Genspect unites many different organizations globally, and gives voice to 1,000s of previously untold stories. For more info, visit genspect.org.

GETA - an association of therapists who believe that individuals experiencing gender related concerns ought to be treated using a whole person approach. GETA connects like minded clinicians, provides educational resources and trainings, and helps people with gender dysphoria find support. For more info, visit genderexploratory.com.
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About your hosts

Stella O'Malley

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Stella O’Malley is a psychotherapist and author who works in private practice in Ireland. Her work focuses on parenting, family dynamics and working with teenagers.

Much of Stella’s counselling and writing focuses on mental health and the importance of well-being and she is a regular contributor to the media. She is also the resident psychotherapist for the current TV series, Raised by the Village, a family programme that helps troubled teenagers reconnect with themselves and their families.

Stella's first book, Cotton Wool Kids, was released in 2015 while Bully-Proof Kids: Practical tools to help kids grow up confident, resilient and strong was released in 2017. Stella’s latest book Fragile, was released in 2019 and focuses on overcoming anxiety and stress.

Stella was the presenter of the documentary Trans - Kids: It’s Time To Talk broadcast on Channel 4 in November 2018 and she contributed a chapter to the 2019 book, Inventing Transgender Children and Young People.

The Jungian analyst, Lisa Marchiano, and Stella launched Secrets of the Motherworld in September 2019, offering thoughtful exploration of the most intimate aspects of motherhood in a bid to help mothers feel less alone.

Stella is a Clinical Advisor for the Society for Evidence-based Gender Medicine and a founding member of the International Association of Therapists for Desisters and Detransitioners. She is also the lead facilitator for the Gender Dysphoria Support Network.

Stella holds a B.A. in Counselling and Psychotherapy and a M.A. in Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

Sasha Ayad

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Sasha Ayad is a Licensed Professional Counselor who works in private practice, and has treated adolescents for over 10 years. Her work focuses on teens and young adults struggling with issues of gender dysphoria and gender identity.

She became interested in the sharp rise in teenagers who declare a trans identity for the first time during adolescence. She discovered, through working with hundreds of families, that many teens were developing gender dysphoria only after adopting a transgender identity. She questions the practice of medical transition for children and teenagers, and her clinical work focuses on developmentally appropriate, least-invasive-first talk therapy.

Sasha is also a founding member and Clinical Advisor in the Society for Evidence-based Gender Medicine and a founding member of the International Association of Therapists for Desisters and Detransitioners.

Sasha’s previous work experience includes:
- School counselor for middle and high school students at a charter school for underserved communities

- Behavioral therapy with children on the autism spectrum

- Individual and group counseling for women and children impacted by domestic abuse and sexual violence

- Developed and ran the first counseling program at a large state supported living facility for adults with intellectual disability

Sasha holds a B.S. in Psychology and an M.Ed. in Counseling Psychology.