Episode 113

113 — Gender A Wider Lens LIVE from Ireland

Published on: 12th May, 2023

Sasha and Stella are together in the same place! Joined by Lisa Marchiano, this live episode was recorded in Killarney, Ireland, and the Genspect Bigger Picture Conference on April 28, 2023.

[22:20] Question from Helen Joyce

[32:13] Question from Colin Wright

[47:35] Question from Maya Forstater

[51:50] Question Jessie Mannisto from Third Factor Magazine

[57:00] Question from Lisa Selin Davis

[1:00:10] Question from Malcolm Clark

[1:01:30] Question from Laura Becker / Funk God Artist

[1:05:38] Question Adrian from LGB Alliance USA

[1:09:51] Question from Wesley Yang


Helen Joyce’s Website:


Helen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HJoyceGender

Reality's Last Stand: a publication by biologist Colin Wright dedicated to providing weekly news, articles, and other content about the biology of sex and sex differences, gender ideology, Critical Social Justice, free speech, and related topics.


Colin on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SwipeWright

Maya Forstater’s Website:


Maya on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MForstater

Sex Matters: a UK-based not-for-profit organization whose mission is to re-establish that sex matters in rules, laws, policies, language, and culture.


Third Factor Magazine: a magazine, community, and resource hub for navigating positive disintegration and reintegration — all about questioning, creativity, character, and courage.


Twitter: https://twitter.com/ThirdFactorMag

Jessie Mannisto on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jlmannisto

BROADview by Lisa Selin Davis: A newsletter about the gender culture wars, & the history, science, psychology & politics of gender nonconformity — misunderstood by the Right and Left. Where do our ideas of normal for boys and girls come from? Speaking the unspeakable. Pro-complexity.


Lisa Selin Davis’s Website: http://www.lisaselindavis.com/

Lisa on Twitter: https://twitter.com/LisaSelinDavis 

Malcolm Clark on Substack: Making science and history documentaries for global broadcasters. Campaigning against gender ideology and puberty blockers.


Malcolm on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm

Laura Becker’s Website:


Laura’s Etsy Shop: Funky art for funky people. A Midwest artist specializing in surreal, psychedelic, and spiritual groovy work. Digital collage, illustration, AI generations, custom traditional canvas paintings, flow art, photography, and graphic design. Commissions or inquiries welcome. Don’t Forget to Boogie.


Laura on Substack: https://funkypsyche.substack.com/

Laura on Twitter: https://twitter.com/funkgodartist

LGB Alliance USA:


Wesley Yang on Substack: Year Zero An ongoing inquiry into the ideological fever that overtook the governing and chattering classes of America during the Trump years


Wesley on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesyang

If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting:

Genspect Speakers Playlist

Many of the esteemed speakers participating in The Bigger Picture have previously been guests on our show. Click the link below to access a playlist composed of AWL episodes involving speakers from the 2023 Genspect Conference.


The Dutch Studies Playlist

We have done a number of episodes about the “Dutch Protocol” which precipitated the surge in youth gender transition. There are many things about the Dutch research that have been misinterpreted and misapplied in various medical settings. Here are all the episodes we’ve done so far where we dig deeper into the studies that started it all.


The Pioneer Series Playlist

This podcast series from "Gender A Wider Lens" focuses on conversations with key figures in the history of gender distress, gender medicine, and gender transition.


Episode 33 — Beyond the “Gifted” Label: A Conversation w/ Jessie Mannisto


Please visit https://linktr.ee/widerlenspod to explore more content, access additional resources, or join our listener community.

For more information about Sasha’s & Stella’s private membership groups:

Sasha Ayad: https://inspiredteentherapy.com/parent-coaching

Stella O’Malley: http://www.stellaomalley.com/parent-coaching

To learn more about our sponsors, visit:




Extended Notes:

  • Sasha and Stella reflect on the joys of meeting people and having face-to-face conversations.
  • The group discusses the revelatory information put forth by Stephanie during the event.
  • Gender distress in a child does not mean the child is trans.
  • Is it ethical to prescribe healthy people a drug that may cause other maladies later in life?
  • Stella stresses the importance of having a dialogue between different groups of people for a common cause.
  • At the conference, the de-trans panel offered a powerful message.
  • Will WPATH build bridges with GenSpect?
  • Being braver in personal conversations will help the gender landscape as a whole.
  • From the clinical side, there has not been an effort to produce therapeutic guidelines on how to work with those who are gender-questioning.
  • When people feel they can share their opinions true change will happen.


“The fact that we have a well-documented history of desistance, between 60%‒90%, tells me that we have a possible story about what dysphoria means and it could resolve, and frankly one of the things that we have investigated over the years is that all of the justifications for going to a medical pathway are based on really flimsy theories that therapy can’t work.” — Sasha [34:35]

“Why would we think that it is acceptable to mess with a young person’s endocrine system?” — Lisa Selin Davis [43:38]

“I think we can all be braver about conversations just even in our personal lives.” — Jessie Mannisto [53:14]

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About the Podcast

Gender: A Wider Lens Podcast
Two therapists explore the expanding concept of "gender" from a psychological depth perspective.
Gender dysphoria has become a minefield for public discussion, with many afraid to express their views or question the narrative. Our mission is to examine this important and complex topic from a range of perspectives, but always through a psychological lens. By openly considering and examining gender identity, transition, and the transgender umbrella, we hope to give all interested parties permission to engage these fascinating topics with less fear and more honesty. Interviews and discussions will involve clinicians, medical professionals, academics, transgender people, parents, detransitioners and other interesting individuals whose lives have been touched by the concept of gender.

Conversations between two practicing therapists give listeners an opportunity to contemplate gender from a depth perspective not currently taken up in most of today’s accessible debates. As a result of their work with gender dysphoric therapy clients as well as their personal divergent experiences with gender, Stella and Sasha hold a refreshing and informed perspective.

Is gender identity a facilitation of development and expression of creativity, or can it be a defense against painful existential realities of living in a human body? What can we discover about masculinity, femininity, identity, gender performance, and sexuality when we peer beneath the surface and dive into a deeper psychological exploration? What is the relationship between body, mind, identity, culture, and psyche?

This podcast engages listeners in an intimate and fascinating behind-the-scenes inquiry about a topic as taboo as it is salient today.

Thank you to our sponsors:
Genspect - an international organization which offers an alternative to WPATH. Providing a range of education, resources and supports to anyone impacted by gender distress, Genspect unites many different organizations globally, and gives voice to 1,000s of previously untold stories. For more info, visit genspect.org.

GETA - an association of therapists who believe that individuals experiencing gender related concerns ought to be treated using a whole person approach. GETA connects like minded clinicians, provides educational resources and trainings, and helps people with gender dysphoria find support. For more info, visit genderexploratory.com.
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About your hosts

Stella O'Malley

Profile picture for Stella O'Malley
Stella O’Malley is a psychotherapist and author who works in private practice in Ireland. Her work focuses on parenting, family dynamics and working with teenagers.

Much of Stella’s counselling and writing focuses on mental health and the importance of well-being and she is a regular contributor to the media. She is also the resident psychotherapist for the current TV series, Raised by the Village, a family programme that helps troubled teenagers reconnect with themselves and their families.

Stella's first book, Cotton Wool Kids, was released in 2015 while Bully-Proof Kids: Practical tools to help kids grow up confident, resilient and strong was released in 2017. Stella’s latest book Fragile, was released in 2019 and focuses on overcoming anxiety and stress.

Stella was the presenter of the documentary Trans - Kids: It’s Time To Talk broadcast on Channel 4 in November 2018 and she contributed a chapter to the 2019 book, Inventing Transgender Children and Young People.

The Jungian analyst, Lisa Marchiano, and Stella launched Secrets of the Motherworld in September 2019, offering thoughtful exploration of the most intimate aspects of motherhood in a bid to help mothers feel less alone.

Stella is a Clinical Advisor for the Society for Evidence-based Gender Medicine and a founding member of the International Association of Therapists for Desisters and Detransitioners. She is also the lead facilitator for the Gender Dysphoria Support Network.

Stella holds a B.A. in Counselling and Psychotherapy and a M.A. in Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

Sasha Ayad

Profile picture for Sasha Ayad
Sasha Ayad is a Licensed Professional Counselor who works in private practice, and has treated adolescents for over 10 years. Her work focuses on teens and young adults struggling with issues of gender dysphoria and gender identity.

She became interested in the sharp rise in teenagers who declare a trans identity for the first time during adolescence. She discovered, through working with hundreds of families, that many teens were developing gender dysphoria only after adopting a transgender identity. She questions the practice of medical transition for children and teenagers, and her clinical work focuses on developmentally appropriate, least-invasive-first talk therapy.

Sasha is also a founding member and Clinical Advisor in the Society for Evidence-based Gender Medicine and a founding member of the International Association of Therapists for Desisters and Detransitioners.

Sasha’s previous work experience includes:
- School counselor for middle and high school students at a charter school for underserved communities

- Behavioral therapy with children on the autism spectrum

- Individual and group counseling for women and children impacted by domestic abuse and sexual violence

- Developed and ran the first counseling program at a large state supported living facility for adults with intellectual disability

Sasha holds a B.S. in Psychology and an M.Ed. in Counseling Psychology.